Current as of 30 April 1999

Log of 27 April Text Chat Session

This session on the organization of information and data bases was logged from a computer in Italy. The time is expressed in CET (UTC+1).

Session Start: Tue Apr 27 16:55:05 1999

[16:58] *** Santiago has joined #UNAccess
[16:58] Santiago> Hello

[16:58] Santiago> Hi

[16:58] MariaCris> Hola

[16:58] Santiago> This is Cristina again, Santiago is in Washington

[16:59] MariaCris> Hola, Cristina, que tal..

[16:59] Santiago> Hola

[16:59] ChasKuhl> A flat file is analogous to index cards or old style IBM cards. One record per card with strictly defined fields. The first generation of SPSS dealt only with flat files.

[16:59] matt-b> Hola Cristina

[17:00] Santiago> hola

[17:00] ChasKuhl> Each field of a flat file can be indexed or not.

[17:00] elaineos> you can still sort a flat file - by any of the fields.

[17:00] ChasKuhl> Indexing makes the sort and retrieval fast.

[17:00] MariaCris> A flat file could be used when you have a lot of information in a fixed format, like a software catalogue

[17:01] ChasKuhl> Flat files are appropriate where there is little duplication of data from one record to the next.

[17:01] elaineos> or addresses, sorting by zip code or by alphabet or by affiliation.

[17:01] ChasKuhl> Right.
[17:02] ChasKuhl> Which kind of database offers the fastest retrieval time? Which the slowest?

[17:03] elaineos> I guess the simplist...flat files? although the hyperlink seems the fastest.

[17:04] MariaCris> How would you index all of them?

[17:04] ChasKuhl> Generally, indexed flat files are the fastest because the index points directly to the record.

[17:05] Santiago> Does the hiperlink allows a greater quatut of info?
[17:05] Santiago> By quatut I meant quantity

[17:05] ChasKuhl> MariaCris--the database systems give you the option of indexing one, some or all fields. The penalty you pay for indexing is larger files sizes.

[17:05] *** MariaCris has quit IRC (quantum-r.ny.us.dal.net qis.md.us.dal.net )

[17:06] ChasKuhl> Santiago -- hyperlinks require human intervention. you become the indexer.

[17:06] Santiago> OK

[17:06] elaineos> and the chooser of what is important to you.

[17:06] ChasKuhl> Exactly.

[17:06] *** MariaCris has joined #UNAccess

[17:06] Santiago> OK

[17:07] ChasKuhl> Thus hyperlinks are not a general purpose way of creating databases.
[17:07] ChasKuhl> New question: Why do you think database programs force you to define each field as a specific data type?

[17:08] elaineos> they are only machines...have to be specific.

[17:09] Santiago> Cause its the only way we can sort the info?

[17:09]ChasKuhl> Alas, they are only machines. Defining data types saves storage. Text takes up lots of space, numbers don't. The programs like to predefine how much storage they need.
[17:11] ChasKuhl> Santiago --yes it helps in sorting too. A field containing 123, and 32 in successive records sorts differently depeding on whehter it is defined as text or numeric.

[17:12] Santiago> Right

[17:12] ChasKuhl> Clint of the UN has joined me in the office.
[17:13] ChasKuhl> Moving on to the use of search engines on the Web: Which search engines have you tried?

[17:13] MariaCris> Yahoo, Altavista

[17:13] elaineos> savvysearch, mining co, infind,altavista - and askjeeves

[17:14] matt-b> I like Hotbot

[17:14] ChasKuhl> Which search engine is the most accessible for the various kind of disability?

[17:14] elaineos> and google

[17:14] Santiago> Infoseek, Altavista and Yahoo, I this yahoo has more limited options

[17:15] MariaCris> I like Yahoo because it doesn't make me do too much scrolling, which is difficult for me

[17:15] matt-b> Most are very graphics intensive--so they could cause problems for readers

[17:15] Santiago> I think Yahoo has limited options regarding the search of info, but i find it the more accessioble one

[17:16] elaineos> I found that infind offered info in accessible chunks - but the advertising is very distracting, on all of them.

[17:16] ChasKuhl> Has anyone tried "inference find?"

[17:16] MariaCris> Altavista type engines give too many options and are confusing.

[17:16] matt-b> I agree about the advertizing.

[17:16] ChasKuhl> Infind.com is almost pure text.

[17:16] elaineos> i am confues, I meant inference find - not infind.

[17:17] ChasKuhl> Clint asks whether anyone has tried Northern light?

[17:17] Santiago> I have not

[17:17] MariaCris> John has. He finds it like Altavista.

[17:18] ChasKuhl> Which engine organizes the results in the most useful way?

[17:18] elaineos> Chuck - you had 4 listed, was one infind or inference?

[17:18] ChasKuhl> infind.com is the url for inference, I believe.

[17:19] elaineos> oh. I found that they presented the info most effectively. and were more accurate.

[17:20] ChasKuhl> Even with infind.com, How do you keep from finding too many entries from a search?

[17:20] matt-b> it is difficult to understand the basis for the organization of the search findings.

[17:20] ChasKuhl> I think they go by the suffix: dot com, dot edu, dot net etc.

[17:20] MariaCris> It depends on how many terms you use in the search. That narrows it.

[17:21] matt-b> For example, some of them use percentages--what does that mean?

[17:21] elaineos> I asked the question of all 4 engines. "universal design". some of them gave me everything that had either word. infind used the phrase,

[17:22] ChasKuhl> In altavista you can force use of the whole phrase by using quotation marks.

[17:22] Santiago> That's a problem I have found regarding the use of phrases fopr the search

[17:22] elaineos> I found it interesting that the name of the domain didn't come up as much as the content.

[17:22] ChasKuhl> Do the search engines which search other search services provide superior results?

[17:23] MariaCris> We just tried inference.com and it was well organized.

[17:23] elaineos> before I answer re searching other engines, remind us of how savvysearch is organized. I was very disappointed in it.

[17:24] MariaCris> Here is a question: how does a new person find out what search engine options they have? Is it a matter of trial and error?

[17:25] ChasKuhl> Can anyone respond to Elaine's question?

[17:26] matt-b> I suppose that there are Web sites that rate the engines (or portals, to be more precise) and describe the features of each.

[17:26] Santiago> I thionk Ma Cris is making a point, on my own pérsonal experience and of some ethers I knoe, it has been a matter of chance. But until now i havent had a clue of all these other searching engines

[17:27] elaineos> re savvysearch, it looked as if a human being decided what to include not a broad sweep.

[17:27] ChasKuhl> There are now so many search engines that you need a search engine to find them. One to look at (or hear) is http://www.beaucoup.com/.

[17:28] MariaCris> John says he likes Sherlock, which is a combination of engines, but which displays a summary of what is in each page that is retrieved. It is a good compromise.

[17:28] ChasKuhl> Sherlock is Mac only I think.

[17:28] elaineos> are they annotated or evaluated for their qualities?

[17:29] ChasKuhl> Elaine: no, you just need to try them one by one to see what you get.

[17:29] matt-b> I bet that none are annotated for accessibility.

[17:29] MariaCris> Yes, there is a rating system giving probabilities that they meet your request. It is, however, dependent on what descriptors the page authors have used and the type of query.

[17:29] elaineos> I once saw an article long ago, that described several.

[17:30] ChasKuhl> What are the best web sources for information on accessibility and disability?

[17:31] elaineos> I'd like to hear from a user who is blind, on their prferences.
[17:31] elaineos> the question needs a little refining, plz

[17:32] MariaCris> Yahoo has a good selection on disability. The infind.com looked like it could identify links to disability.
[17:32] MariaCris> The DPI web site (www.dpi.org) has a good selection of national links.

[17:33] ChasKuhl> Do you find Yahoo to be excessively English language and North America oriented?

[17:33] Santiago> I do

[17:33] elaineos> there are different ways of cutting the info. The TRACE center has info on HOW to, quidelines re creating accessib;le sites, prouducts with links to built environment sources.

[17:35] MariaCris> Searching from the IAEA in Vienna, I think using Altavista, I was able to pick up many sites in Latin America in Spanish.

[17:35] elaineos> about 6 years ago, the Cornucopia of Disability Info began the most extensive indexing of disability related topics. Now there are many who package the info in many flavors.
[17:36] elaineos> that was called CODI and it began as a gopher site - for you archivists.

[17:36] ChasKuhl> Are there useful government sponsored sites that pull it all together?

[17:37] elaineos> Chuck, when you ask that do you mean a fed agency or a fed agency funded?

[17:37] MariaCris> BTW, I just realized that Yahoo has a Latin American version, also European and Asian...

[17:38] *** Santiago has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving )

[17:38] ChasKuhl> Elaine: Each option, separately.

[17:40] elaineos> the fed agencies that I know, such as the national Inst on Dis Rehab and Research lists it grantees and their work. the grantees tend to be broader. The most comprehensive that I know are independent. such as the Independednt Living Inst out of Sweden, Adolf ratzka's site.

[17:42] ChasKuhl> Elaine: Your knowledge of specialized sites wil be valuable assets in your own universal design site.

[17:43] elaineos> yes. I work with this all the time and am trying to appreciate it from a new user (influential user) persepctive.

[17:44] MariaCris> For me, going to a good site and then following the links that are suggested there has been very useful. It save me some searching.

[17:44] elaineos> it is like asking a respected expert...

[17:45] ChasKuhl> The important point is that not everyone has time to exercise all the search options. Thus Elaine's prospective site can lead people to resources quickly.

[17:45] MariaCris> But how will I know to go to Elaine's site?

[17:45] ChasKuhl> Clint suggests the analogy of mining.co

[17:46] elaineos> please offer suggestions on howm to find my yet mythical site.

[17:47] MariaCris> You should include in your page titles terms like "disability" "access"

[17:47] ChasKuhl> MC: Elaine needs to put as many seachable key words invisibly in her HTML as possible so the engines can find it. For example, the porno sites put every dirty word in (and out) of the dictionary in their HTML.

[17:47] MariaCris> How do you make them invisible?

[17:47] elaineos> ...aha! it's the html words that point the way! news to me.

[17:48] ChasKuhl> It's Matt's turn on this one.

[17:48] MariaCris> Or Leo's

[17:49] ChasKuhl> Leo, matt, any suggestions?

[17:49] MariaCris> John: Invisible html is basically writing text in white letters on a white background. You can't see them, but they can be read by the computer, or by anyone reading the html.

[17:49] lvaldes> There are "Meta" statements you can put in the "Head" portion of your code. One of them allows for keywords that don't appear on a page, but can be seen by search engines.

[17:50] matt-b> You can tag the page between the header and the body of the HTML code.
[17:51] matt-b> The tags would include key words and descriptive material that the "search engines" pick up.

[17:51] elaineos> this is very helpful. there is a lot about the techncial development that is different than the intuitve process and hierarchy of information.

[17:51] matt-b> Yes, they are called meta tags.

[17:53] elaineos> what about the "submit it" process to seach engines, will this 'assure' inclusion?

[17:53] matt-b> i have never used the submit it process. Has anyone used that?

[17:53] ChasKuhl> Not if they have human editors. I would guess that the topics we are discussing would be welcome.

[17:53] MariaCris> We tried to submit AIMS to Yahoo and got no response... There are now companies that promise to get your placed.

[17:54] elaineos> promise her anything...

[17:54] ChasKuhl> Do they still sell Arpege?

[17:54] elaineos> :)

[17:55] MariaCris> I am not sure what criteria the search engine editors use to put you in.

[17:55] ChasKuhl> Clint says the criteria are arbitrary.

[17:56] MariaCris> They probably give a priority to subjects that are not well-covered, since their stock in trade is the comprehensiveness of coverage.

[17:56] matt-b> That is the problem with the "search engines". Is it "objective" or paid for?

[17:56] ChasKuhl> We won't be paying, that's for sure.

[17:56] matt-b> But we may have something better than money.

[17:57] ChasKuhl> Let me wrap up by saying this has been a useful sharing of information for me and I hope for the other participants.

[17:57] matt-b> Good will from promoting a worthy cause.

[17:57] ChasKuhl> Any concluding comments on the session itself?

[17:58] MariaCris> John: There are alternatives to search engines: you can find a way to advise your constituencies of your existence and build a client base by word of mouth.

[17:58] MariaCris> Electronically-speaking.
[17:58] MariaCris> I learned a great deal that I didn't know before.

[17:59] matt-b> The discussion of "search engines" has been very helpful. If you want to get your message out, you have to build them into Web pages design.

[17:59] elaineos> we have to learn how to "use" seach engines for our benefit, the html, the meat tag - very helpful. thank you.
[17:59] elaineos> meta tag I meant.

[18:00] matt-b> I can create a Web page on how to make the meta tags, when I return to Syracuse.

[18:00] ChasKuhl> Thank you all -- hope to see you on May 6 in New York.

[18:00] elaineos> teriffic!

[18:00] matt-b> Ciao!

[18:00] elaineos> and what about next week on line, Leo?

[18:00] *** MariaCris is now known as john-m

[18:01] lvaldes> Next week, we'll look at the underlying codes used to make web pages accessible.

[18:02] lvaldes> To prepare for that, go to the online sessions schedule at http://www.intlmgt.com/schedule.htm and follow the May 4 link

[18:02] lvaldes> The assignment is light reading, and it should debunk the mystique of getting pages accessible.
[18:03] lvaldes> I'll see you all next week when we discuss the topic and assignments.

[18:04] john-m> Maria Cristina: Thanks, see you then.

[18:04] elaineos> Thank you leo, Chuck and all. bye.

[18:04] matt-b> Bye bye.

[18:04] ChasKuhl> Good day and best regards.

[18:04] john-m> Auf wiedersehen

[18:04] lvaldes> Bye.

Session Close: Tue Apr 27 18:05:23 1999

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