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Accessibility for the 21st Century : Accessibility 1998
: Chat Log
Log of 4 May Text Chat SessionSession Start: Tue May 04 10:26:01 1999
[11:03] lvaldes> Can I at least hear from Clint to confirm his attendance? [11:03] CKlint> hello from nyu since we have problems connecting at un.org! [11:04] lvaldes> Thanks for being there... [11:04] *** Santiago has joined #UNAccess [11:05] MariaCris> Welcome [11:05] CKlint> buenos dias [11:05] lvaldes> Welcome, glad you could make it. [11:06] elaineos> I'm interested in intent of may 6 meeting. [11:07] MariaCris> John will discuss that in his closing. [11:07] elaineos> ok [11:07] lvaldes> Thank you MC. On to topic 1. [11:10] MariaCris> Is there any restriction on the length of the tag? [11:10]elaineos> not the theory, only practice. [11:10] lvaldes> Not really, but since the tag must fit in a small space, it
is best to keep it short, say, 100 characters. [11:11] elaineos> there are options for longer text [11:11] matt-b> When Ability critiqued our Website, she did not seem to like the Alt tags. In her view they did not seem to add much. [11:11] elaineos> there is a "d" link, or link to a longer file [11:11] lvaldes> That is right Elaine. NCAM uses the "D" text link to show a longer description. [11:12] elaineos> well they didn't have color or any detail. just barebones [11:12] lvaldes> NCAM is National Center for Accessible Media. [11:13] MariaCris> John: Ability prefers text pages. Perhaps the solution is not the tags, but to have a parallel text-only page where the point being made by the graphics can be specified. [11:13] matt-b> The question that I have is how detailed should the descriptions for images be. For example, for images of persons, should they describe how they are dressed, how the image was shot, etc. [11:13] lvaldes> If I have a picture of myself, how do I describe it? [11:13] elaineos> NCAM specailizes in descriptive video, are able to capture the detail in each imge. it is a growing "science". [11:14] MariaCris> You could give some basic attributes, like hair color.
Like I describe to Kicki. [11:14] matt-b> Leo, I could descibe your image that will accompany this log as follows: Leo Valdes dressed in a suit and tie. [11:14] elaineos> imagine what you would like to know to get the essence, flavor. [11:15] lvaldes> In fact, John M's dexcription of himself in front of a
computer was enough. [11:15] elaineos> i hated a "d" description of a freind of mine in a conference pix. "middle aged woman" didn't tell anything. [11:16] MariaCris> No, you have to describe something that will differentiate the person from some generic concept. [11:16] matt-b> Yes, the computer was important, because it conveyed the idea that he was conducting the text chat session. [11:16] lvaldes> You are giving the audience a description of the picture,
and its detail is dependent on your message. [11:17] MariaCris> In other words, the purpose of the picture in the page determines what you should describe... [11:17] lvaldes> Correct. [11:17] matt-b> Good. I agree that this is a good rule of thumb. [11:17] elaineos> we've been experimenting with audio describing arch photographs; detailed design images to convey the essence. [11:18] lvaldes> We'll look at other technologies in a moment. Audio included. [11:18] [11:18] lvaldes> In summary, describe based on your message. [11:19] elaineos> this takes practice and feedback from users. [11:20] lvaldes> Yes. [11:21] elaineos> any image that is used needs explanation, as the non visual user wonders what is there. [11:21] lvaldes> A good rule of thumb for graphic representation of text is "don't use it". [11:22] elaineos> even a graphic fancy version of a word. bobby critiques this lack. [11:22] lvaldes> Yes. But why would I have a nice looking masthead then, if it says the same thing as a text heading will say? [11:23] elaineos> but you do want your page to have visual appeal as well. [11:23] MariaCris> The issue of visuals is related to only one kind of disability. For most others, graphics help. [11:23] lvaldes> True, and if your text masthead includes an image behind or beside it, it enhances the message. [11:23] matt-b> Of course some disabled persons like the graphics because it makes the page easier to understand or easier to use. [11:24] MariaCris> Better to have a separate text-based page for the visually impaired, then the question of graphics becomes easier... [11:24] lvaldes> Yes, visual appeal is one thing, but images also have the ability of helping convey more complex messages. [11:24] elaineos> That is a big question, whether to have one universal page or two versions. [11:25] lvaldes> Good, talking about text-only pages... [11:25] matt-b> Yes, I agree with MC on the text only version, but this increases the "cost" of your Web site. [11:25] MariaCris> Yes. We used pictures to show the implications of the Standard Rules in our presentation in the [11:25] MariaCris> Dominican Republic. [11:25] lvaldes> Is it REALLY necessary? [11:25] elaineos> there is great value in format, display to communicate. picture is worth a etc [11:26] lvaldes> Let's not kid ourselves. It takes a lot to create an alternative page to what you've created. [11:26] MariaCris> It depends. Sometimes you can summarize. But, for example, a graph on internet usage is very impressive. [11:26] lvaldes> It is possible to have one page, but the descriptors are
needed. [11:27] elaineos> is there a problem for the bsndwidth impaired if it is all one page? [11:27] MariaCris> John: A text only page can become very busy and hard to read on the small or low-resolution monitors that most people have. [11:27] lvaldes> We've discussed this elsewhere, that our goal is reasonable accomodation. [11:27] matt-b> Yes, let's talk about bandwidth [11:28] lvaldes> Good topic, Matt. [11:28] matt-b> I have seen pages that take 3 to 4 minutes to load using my T-3 line. [11:28] MariaCris> John: The main issue for us in bandwidth is the speed with which pages load. Graphics obviously load slower. [11:28] lvaldes> How can your ONE single page be accessible to all, including people with slower Internet connections [11:29] MariaCris> KISS, keep it simple, stupid. [11:29] matt-b> By making a text only version and putting the link right after the header, the viewer could immediately go to text and not have to wait. [11:29] lvaldes> If you look at web pages, they are 10% text and 90% graphics
by volume. [11:30] matt-b> We have a problem with our new International Relations homepage. [11:30] MariaCris> How about using jpg images instead of gif [11:30] lvaldes> There are web sites that will critique your use of graphics and suggest ways of making them slimmer. [11:31] elaineos> The way graphics are presented, I don't know the terms lower pixils or something makesa diffrence. [11:31] matt-b> We have an image at the top that takes forever to load. We have been able to compress it by 50%, but the quality is not as good. [11:31] lvaldes> GIF is normally used for illustrations, and JPG for
pictures. [11:32] matt-b> Even working with JPGs, there are different compressions. [11:32] lvaldes> use simpler backgrounds, with similar colors. [11:32] elaineos> do you mean GIF for line drawings, jpg for photographs? [11:32] lvaldes> Also, JPG can use different compressions. [11:32] MariaCris> John's powerpoint presentation on the web was in jpeg files. It was not sharp. Did that bother people? [11:32] lvaldes> Yes, Elaine, though not strictly so. [11:32] elaineos> and what is TIFF? [11:33] lvaldes> TIFF is another format, though not as popular. [11:33] matt-b> I would also like to talk about frames and tables. [11:34] lvaldes> The advantage of GIF is that you can use them to create
"animation" and see-through backgrounds. [11:34] elaineos> and how some forms of columns can be read by a screen reader, explain please. [11:34] matt-b> I know that frames are a "no no," but what about tables? [11:34] CKlint> and what about java applets as well [11:35] lvaldes> We'll tackle those in sequence. Let's start with tables. [11:37] MariaCris> John: Does that mean that the independent variable should be in the rows and the dependent in the columns? [11:37] elaineos> so if they are spaced so one can read left to right it is OK? [11:37] matt-b> Leo, you used tables. How would the reader "read" your tables? If it reads from left to right, the user might get very confused. [11:37] lvaldes> Tables are accessible, but knowing that they are read left-to-right helps you determine how to organize the boxes. [11:38] elaineos> it's the white space that matters. [11:38] MariaCris> White space doesn't affect a screen reader, does it? [11:39] lvaldes> No, white space is not a problem. But using an empty graphic to space, without alt tags is. [11:39] matt-b> But in your May 4th overview, the reader would move from Matt
Bonham's etc. on the left to "Welcome etc." in the middle. [11:40] lvaldes> Not necessarily, the whole cell would include all the links on the left side, Before the next column is read. [11:40] matt-b> I see. [11:41] lvaldes> So, the reader can find out what other links are available, before seeing the main topic. [11:41] elaineos> I don't. re-sate please. [11:41] lvaldes> OK. I used two columns in my web page for May 4. [11:41] matt-b> So the readers read the entire left cell first then go on to
the cell in the middle. [11:42] lvaldes> The first column includes the "Matt Bonham..." and other links. that is read first. [11:42] lvaldes> Empty cells are just not read out. [11:42] elaineos> "Cell"? is like a ?? [11:43] lvaldes> A table is made up of cells. A 2 x 2 table has four cells. [11:43] elaineos> ok. [11:43] lvaldes> There is a lot regarding tables in the HTML 4.0 recommendation of the Web Accessibility Initiative. [11:44] elaineos> I need a picture book to help me with this. [11:44] lvaldes> It also describes how you can give titles to tables. [11:44] MariaCris> I need a picture book also. [11:44] lvaldes> OK, how about audio. when is it appropriate? [11:45] elaineos> WAI is a great dense site - but not for the beginner. [11:45] MariaCris> What is WAI? [11:45] matt-b> Good question. I put an audio narration on my MSPowerPoint presentation. [11:45] CKlint> one problem with audio is which release of the audio applet and corporate firewalls sometimes block,as at un.org - clint [11:45] lvaldes> WAI=web accessibility initiative [11:46]elaineos> I like audio as an option, to accompany the streaming text. [11:46] lvaldes> Audio also takes up a lot of space, for the few words spoken. [11:46] MariaCris> John: In addition to whether the computers have a sound card (all Macs do), there is the problem of the software to reproduce it. Matt uses G2 from RealAudio. [11:47] matt-b> Does RealMedia use an applet? I think it is just a file that is downloaded and "read" by a RealMedia player. [11:47] MariaCris> Not all computers come with audio software bundled... [11:47] lvaldes> Real Audio provides very good compression, but not everyone can use it. Most office computers don't have sound cards. [11:48] CKlint> sorry about the term ; problem with firewalls and not all pc's have sound cards, an economy measure at un.org [11:48] matt-b> So you have to provide a text version of the audio for the hearing empaired and those persons who don't have a sound card. [11:48] MariaCris> John: to keep UN staff from downloading Rap music? [11:49] lvaldes> Matt - yes, correct. All audio must be accompanied by some text. [11:49] MariaCris> But for the visually impaired, audio can be very useful... [11:49] CKlint> more likely not to listen to cnn live news or the like.
paternal computing in action [11:49] lvaldes> You may want to reconsider audio-only because screen readers can translate text to voice. [11:50] matt-b> Suppose the UN developed a RealAudio streaming capability for its news, would sound cards be installed, Clint? [11:50] lvaldes> If audio includes, say, Music, it adds value. [11:50] CKlint> good question but this willl be answered by purchasing agents and not by users [11:50] elaineos> I like the idea of multi-cast, where you COULD if you had the speakers, etc, get a broadcast with accompanying sound, printed text and photographs [11:50] MariaCris> Many visually impaired do not read braille. It's an old method. They prefer audio. Also visually impaired persons like to hear different voices.. [11:51] lvaldes> Screen readers can now be configured to use male/female voices. [11:51] matt-b> Audio is a lot easier and faster than Braille. [11:51] MariaCris> But only one at a time and not the voice of the author of a page [11:51] matt-b> I would prefer audio. [11:51] elaineos> the use of Braille is a very hot issue, vs literacy. [11:51] CKlint> interesting point. eye understood braille was essential for promoting literacy or is this a generational issue to consider later on ... [11:52] lvaldes> All very interesting indeed. looks like the jury is our on audio. [11:52] MariaCris> We should consult Kicki on this one [11:52] lvaldes> I'd suggest using it sparingly. [11:52] matt-b> Screen readers also come in American English, British English, Latin American Spanish, Spain Spanish, etc. [11:53] elaineos> user preferences are sometimes hard to evaluate and sort out between essential, desireble... [11:53] lvaldes> The speaker's voice is great as a means of greeting the audience. [11:53] MariaCris> That would be a good use. [11:53] lvaldes> The entire presentation need not use the speaker's voice. [11:54] matt-b> I think that voice and music are important and add much to text. For the ASEAN project we are planning video as well. [11:54] lvaldes> Yes, when publishing on CD, it is possible to use audio, video, etc. because there is no bandwidth problem. [11:55] CKlint> video is important in that context since for many english is a second language and the picture is worth a lot more than the words not welll understood [11:55] lvaldes> One final issue. Have you used "click here"? [11:55] lvaldes> Is "click here" accessible? [11:55] MariaCris> I did! [11:55] matt-b> Yes, and what about Acrobat, drop downs etc. [11:55] MariaCris> Yes, if they have a screen reader. [11:55] CKlint> how does one click with key board access [11:56] elaineos> the challenge is to descrobe the pictures, as in a new CD ROM we'rw working on that has as its purpose examples of universal design. [11:56] lvaldes> Most browsers allow users to hit Tab to get to a link. [11:56] elaineos> acrobat is usually offered with text option. [11:56] lvaldes> But is "Click here" descriptive enough? [11:57] MariaCris> You have to say what the click is for [11:57] lvaldes> Yes, best you use the description of the page as the hyperlink. [11:57] elaineos> I think click here works if there is some context around it [11:58] lvaldes> For screen readers, tabbing to a link won't show the
context. [11:58] CKlint> click here loses something if one is using a thin client such as nokia web phones and palm devices as well as psion with epoc os. there you point or use the tab. we have to be able to think accessibility that is vialble beyond the windows and mac os world and the emerging thin clien reality [11:59] lvaldes> There are other technologies we could have looked into but we're running out of time. [11:59] matt-b> Good point Clint. I had not thought about thin clients. [11:59] elaineos> the access board is struggling with all this now in realtion to the new regs for 508. [11:59] lvaldes> Any last comments and questions? [12:00] MariaCris> I'm going to turn over to John, now. [12:00] valdes> Well, we've discussed a lot of things, and I wish we had more time. [12:00] *** MariaCris is now known as john-m [12:00] lvaldes> I'd like to thank you for your attention. [12:00] CKlint> eye like the elaine point about "508" ; how much can one use this as a proxy for developing similar accessibility standards in countries. later because of time but important [12:01] lvaldes> It was a good session! Over to you John ... [12:01] CKlint> thanks leo .. see you soon [12:01] john-m> We've had four interesting sessions. [12:01] Santiago> Thanks leo [12:01] john-m> I think that we have begun to come to terms with the main issues in accessibility. [12:01] elaineos> yes, BIG THANKS LEO [12:02] john-m> They include planning and designing for different types of
disabilities. [12:06] CKlint> elaine??? [12:06] elaineos> I wish I could be there, there is a lot to cover. [12:07] matt-b> The "translated into policies" is a very important phrase that we ought to discuss on May 6th. [12:07] elaineos> the internal policies and also the public interaction policies. [12:07] john-m> Santiago? [12:08] elaineos> and the huge issue of tchncial assistance, the ADA has huge amounts of TA behind it. [12:08] Santiago> I think its really intresting. I am sorry I did nort participate actively in this sessio, but I did learn a lot. Thanks [12:09] elaineos> I have lerned a lot about the process of online teaching and lerning as well as new understanding of some content. [12:09] john-m> One issue to address on Thursday is the question of what "reasonable accomodation" could mean in an international context and the types of public investment by international organizations that will be needed to achieve it. [12:09] CKlint> one practical lesson is the rapid pace of change in the field
of info technology and policy development. second is the importance of open approaches,
and valuable input from elaine, kiki and santiago to this process. third is the need to
think ahead within a strategic framework for accessible solutions for all [12:10] john-m> Since time has really run out, let's continue this discussion on Thursday. Elaine and Santiago, we will be posting the results of Thursday on the web and will keep you informed. I think this is just the beginning of the international dialogue on this issue. [12:11] CKlint> or perhaps within universal design approaches: get it accessible the first time [12:11] john-m> Thanks to Leo and to all of you. It has been a remarkable experiment. [12:11] CKlint> and the importance of regional and subregional dialogues as well [12:11] elaineos> let's keep some communication please. [12:11] matt-b> Leo thanks for doing a terrific job on this issue. John, thanks for an excellent summary. [12:12] lvaldes> Thanks to all for a lively discussion! [12:12] CKlint> yes many thanks to all ... and a requirement for us to stay current with our internet content [12:12] Santiago> Thank you [12:12] john-m> I declare the on-line seminar adjourned sine dia. [12:12] *** john-m is now known as MariaCris [12:13] MariaCris> Santiago, could you stay for a few minutes? I have some questions. [12:13] CKlint> a motion to adjourn is always in order! [12:13] Santiago> Yes of course [12:13] elaineos> so moved [12:13] matt-b> Bye Bye. See you on Thursday! [12:13] MariaCris> bye to all [12:13] lvaldes> Bye. Looking forward to Thursday. [12:14] elaineos> bye and thanks again for the invite. Session Close: Tue May 4 12:14:06 1999 |
